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Forum : Producing Help : questions about producing

jette [nl]
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Maybe this is a good place to put some questions and/or tips about producing..
I have a question for example, I work with Fruityloops and have difficulties finishing a track in an accurate way, I would like to read more parameters more precisely, like more in numbers. When equalizing for example.
Editing a song in seperate patterns using another sequencer or Audacity for example, is difficult while most inserts influence each other and so I cannot really just render every pattern and put it in another program where I can edit it. Does anyone know a good solution, or do I just have to face the expressive way Fruityloops is built?
 
 
 
MarinuZz [nl]
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I haven't used fruityloops for a while now. But from what I know from working with with electronic music production software is that when you want to bounce (export) separate audio or vst channels with auxilary fx (send fx). It's when you use the effect for more channels. You just solo the desired channel and the channel of the fx you want to export. Now when you make a mixdown of the track. You have exported one channel mono or two channels stereo with fx. Mono or stereo export is something that you have to choose yourself. It depends if your auxilary effect is also mono or stereo. 
Most of the times in program's like logic or cubase auxilary fx channels are automatically been selected to the channel you want to export. I thought that it worked the in fruityloops. Things like for instanse the effect of sidechaining are also heard.Because when you use inserts like compression or gates that trigger the sidechain the signal flow is so that when you mute the channel is played and doing it's work. So you hear the effect of sidechaining on the solo'd channel. So you can bounce channel that way. And then make the mixdown in another digital audio workstation.
If you want to have more control in that way over the ratio between auxilary fx and the 'dry' sound. It's easy only bounce the dry and the fx channel seperately. In the analogue studio I send the desired audio and the send fx channel to different recorded channel. You can also send the 'dry channel' to a group bus and mute that bus. Now only the wet sound is received on for instance the master out. When you use another daw to make a mixdown you can termine the ratio between dry/wet. This trick with sending an audio channel to a muted bus is also possible with sidechaining. Then you hear the effect on the affected channel without the sound of the trigger. 

But for what I read is that if you want to use eq's or programmes to control you sound better and give more precise visual presentation in numbers. Maybe try other i.e. eq-plugins than the plugins of fruityloops.
What I often do with chunk's of layered sound is to leave a little bit space after the patterns. So that the release with the decay in the amplitude of the fx's and sounds are heard after the events of the pattern. When I have a project that uses a lot of cpu. I make some parts in another project and add them as an audio file in the 'real' project.  


 
 
 
jette [nl]
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Thanks for your answer! I actually never use the sends, I always use the inserts and then send those to the other inserts. Never tried sends in FL, only on an analog mixer.
I wonder in what order they are processed. For example when I put a snare on insert 8 and send that insert to 1,2,3,6 in different amounts, will it go from 1 up or from maximum to down. Or random, dunno.
I will try to find a more accurate equalizer to use for the master. Although the parametric eq 2 in FL is quite nice because of the visuals there, it lacks numbers. Maybe there is a combination to find somewhere. When I've found it I will post it here then.
 
 
 
MarinuZz [nl]
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Graag gedaan!
What do you mean with an insert from your point of view? 
When I talk about an insert I talk about a break in the signal/channelpath where you can patch i.e. a compression in. It works the same with a daw only difference is you klik a mouse button.  
Maybe you know it already.. then somebody else proberly can use this info. This is pretty how it in general works.
I am to lazy to make a drawing of the channel signalflow. Sorry for if I violate any copyright but hell just check it. I found this by google. It's a pretty basic sceme of a mixer signalflow. Software Instrument/line in/audio track. With fruityloops I believe that you can route the output of the fx to for instance a group bus. 
http://classes.berklee.edu/mbierylo/mtec111_Pages/mixing/assets/GB_Signal_Flow.jpg
Compressor, limiter, gate, de-esser, eq etc.. is often called dynamic control.

The really basic is that when you want to add up time related fx processing to your audio signal it's is wise to use the auxilaries. Aux return wil come to the master out. When you use compression, limiters, gate, equalisers, filters you make an insert break in the signal patch. You can use the in different proportions on the other audio channel. In example the insert 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. The signalflow goes from 1 to 8. 'A Again an insert is a break in the channelpath' so the whole signal is fed into to it. There are a few things where you have to think of. Again the example:  The inserts 1. 2. 3. 4. is before the eq in the mixer. The inserts 5, 6, 7, 8, are after the mixer. This amount of insert flucturate depending on the mixer charistatics of the daw and mixing console you can work with. The signal flow of a channel goes from 1 to 8. If you insert dynamic processing at particular insert the break in the signal path wil take place it that number because of the device is build to do that in that way or with program it's software architecture.
Another common example: You have a nice kick recorded by yours truly. But you have some noise with it. When you equalise it you probaly wil attenuate the noise but it wil also affecting your nice kick sound. With stuff like gating you can gate the noise of the audio channel. With a really shitty soundrecording it's stay's bad but there are also the wonders of granularsynthesis and wavefieldsynthesis maybe you can make it into a somewhat strange fault of nature. But that's another topic I am completely into sample manipulation, applieing stuff like fft's and from there you can convolve one sound into another.. 
So you gate noise by set a noise-gate (or gate) before the equalizer, you eq the sound, after the eq you use a compressor (insert 5), after the compression you put a filter (insert 6) now you can make sweet filter drops of the signal. To be really crazy put a bitcrushher on Insert (7) some automatic or play it with you midi controller. With the use of the auxilaries you can do some nice realtime processing on your sound.
Now about the auxalary. My point of view is when you use the auxilaries the order is not that important. Of course there's an order. Can you reframe your question with for instance why do you want to know it and what do you want to achieve. With previous example of using inserts (like compression) it isi Auxilaries are in fact extra signal pads out and into the mixer (it's works the same with the normal daw's). From the audio channel you send the 'output' of the channel into the send path. This extra channel path you can patches it into a new channel or let it return via auxilary return on your console. With most daw's you can return the wet signal that a group (bus). On this way you can make drum bus. So when you cuttof the sound of the bus you don't hear the reverb wet sound of for instance a snaredrum). This is because of that the return channel is directly linked to master. Anyway on the consoles I have worked with. That's way it's is better to return it on your mixer via a new channel with input of reverb. You can roote it now to the group bus with the heavy cutoff. When use send 2 with for instance a flanger.. Keep in mind of those same thing. It's doesn't affect the orignele channel sound. But it is add up. With thing like compression then you affect the whole sound.. And then you think of the signal flow of your daw or mixer. 
Ik hope it's a bit more clearer now.




Quote:
Originally posted by : jette

Thanks for your answer! I actually never use the sends, I always use the inserts and then send those to the other inserts. Never tried sends in FL, only on an analog mixer.
I wonder in what order they are processed. For example when I put a snare on insert 8 and send that insert to 1,2,3,6 in different amounts, will it go from 1 up or from maximum to down. Or random, dunno.
I will try to find a more accurate equalizer to use for the master. Although the parametric eq 2 in FL is quite nice because of the visuals there, it lacks numbers. Maybe there is a combination to find somewhere. When I've found it I will post it here then.

 
 
 
MarinuZz [nl]
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Maybe it's smart to read some theory about equalizers and filters during morning breakfast. With the computer music magazine they also provide a dvd-with some junk. They also provide some tutorials in pdf format. Here's a link:
http://www.computermusic.co.uk/page/computermusic?entry=free_beginner_pdfs
www.synthforum.nl is a dutch orientated synthnerdies site. You should check it. There are a lot of nerdies, producers and sounddesigners around who are willing to explain something about soundstuff.
 
 
 
jette [nl]
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I use the inserts as in the picture I added. Here I send the audiofile to the mixer, and it's pre. But as u can see on the picture you can choose (at the place where your fx are loaded) how much signal you let being processed by the insert. And you can route this signal, (which is being processed by the fx) to another one. That's just the way I tend to work.
There's on the right side of the mixer some sends, but I've never figured out how it works in FL. For now it has been enough to use just the inserts. But maybe it would be handy to know.

I'll have a look at the tutorial, but also have a few books at home (for example the Art of Sound Reproduction) so there's already a lot waiting to be read ;)

It's nonetheless a very nice subject, I find it wonderful that it there. :)
 
 
 
MarinuZz [nl]
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Oke so you can route a signal into the mixer to a particular insert. That seems okey but if's really handy that is some else. There you place the fx. With the delta distortion it's routed okey. Are you also use delayish kind of fx in that bus (insert) I have also added a simple overview about how I work in cubase. It's a bit the same for when I use logic or protools. Ofcourse where you place your fx in the signal chain you have to decide yourself. 
In the picture of my I have used more signal channels where I use the auxilary fx.  It's possible to route a group to another group bus enzovoorts.. The sends you can also the route a signal to group bus for when you want layer a drumbus with a heavy compressed drumbus or other crazy stuff.. Auxilary you can use then as an extra path in the mixer. 
On my music space that is stil in construction (I have troubles to make a nice layout for myspace). In the mye-sampledress (excerpt) after 0:30 you can hear bitcrushed synth where as later use as filter to convolve a  sequenced source synth in reaktor. Now I am typing it I realize that I can also route it as a auxilary fx. Where I can also feed others channel by send into the convolve device to do more crazy stuff. And then use automated mutes on the groupbus to cutoff dry sound so that you only can hear the wet convolved sound. 
Using the inserts in that way you use seems oke. But try to play a bit more with the mixer, signal flow and make use of the sends for delays, flanger, phasers, chorus and reverb for example. Signals that have to be affect completely route it to an insert.  

 
 
 
MarinuZz [nl]
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http://forum.flstudio.nl/viewtopic.php?t=6260
But with filter it isn't wise to do it like this. For instance with 4 inserts that you want to apply then make a bus of an insert. 
 
 
 
MarinuZz [nl]
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So you can now make a drum bus, synth bus, drone and soundscape bus. So that you can devide the amount a channels in different busses for easier control. For instance for a drum bus I have linked 9 channels. Kick, Snare, hh, hh2, perc, perc1, crashleft, crashright.. With each if needed applied send reverb, delay, if needed insert compression, bitcrushed. The return of the auxilary you can send to a bus or master. Then on the bus you can apply multiband compression, 30 band eq. bitcrusher and filters for strange drops on the whole drums. It wil cost some cpu but so don't need other programs to make your mixdown.
 
 
 
jette [nl]
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Quote:
Originally posted by : MarinuZz

So you can now make a drum bus, synth bus, drone and soundscape bus. So that you can devide the amount a channels in different busses for easier control. For instance for a drum bus I have linked 9 channels. Kick, Snare, hh, hh2, perc, perc1, crashleft, crashright.. With each if needed applied send reverb, delay, if needed insert compression, bitcrushed. The return of the auxilary you can send to a bus or master. Then on the bus you can apply multiband compression, 30 band eq. bitcrusher and filters for strange drops on the whole drums. It wil cost some cpu but so don't need other programs to make your mixdown.
 
 most of the times I don't make special busses for special types of sound. I just listen to the different sounds the different fxchannels make when I send a sound to a bus and then decide if I send it to the bus, when I like it. Or make a new bus for that sound.
 
 
 
MarinuZz [nl]
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Quote:
Originally posted by : jette

<span class="quoteStyle">Originally posted by : MarinuZz

So you can now make a drum bus, synth bus, drone and soundscape bus. So that you can devide the amount a channels in different busses for easier control. For instance for a drum bus I have linked 9 channels. Kick, Snare, hh, hh2, perc, perc1, crashleft, crashright.. With each if needed applied send reverb, delay, if needed insert compression, bitcrushed. The return of the auxilary you can send to a bus or master. Then on the bus you can apply multiband compression, 30 band eq. bitcrusher and filters for strange drops on the whole drums. It wil cost some cpu but so don't need other programs to make your mixdown.
             
 most of the times I don't make special busses for special types of sound. I just listen to the different sounds the different fxchannels make when I send a sound to a bus and then decide if I send it to the bus, when I like it. Or make a new bus for that sound.
</span> 
Hmmm.. I don't think that you understand explenation. I can give some arguments and theory guidelines if you want. I don't wanna be showoff or something.. or something.. I just wanna give some tips about how you can get a good final mixing result. I know when I started to produce electronic music about some years to other 'friends' that produce where quite vage in their explanation. I still don't know why. I have learned audio engeering at SAE in Rotterdam and now I am studying Sonology at the conservatory in Den Haag. I know I am not a good dance producer or something and you don't have to study to make a good production. I have no problems with telling how I get to somekind of result with producing sound. Audio engeering is not something that I work everyday with. But even with composing/design sound I know this subject is a basic and very important thing. A good signalflow is one of the basic fundaments of a good production. For instance with due to rolling you have improved the mix a bit more. But it isn't good. You have to think more with sounds in groups a frequencies and place them correctly in the audio spectrum. Therefore you have to devide the sounds in signal flow at threaten them like the sounds deserves. 
So you really should start to work like that. But this is something you will have to do decide for yourself.
So just do it like that and if you want to know more about it. Don't eager to ask something. Next week I will have some more time to get into it.

A bit of topic :)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcHnL7aS64Y&feature=related

www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ykZYy82eGs
I am not a big John Cage fan. But his ideas about music are good. Dick Raaijmakers is just tha bom.. He's a hero of the dutch electronic popmusic.
 
 
 
jette [nl]
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I guess I understand what you mean but it hasn't been the way I've been working since I started making music. And it's a bit difficult to change the way I learnt it, but I also see the positive side of treating every signal seperately.

I'm used to work -(hardly) not structured-, and therefor my tracks become difficult to work with for me, sometimes I don't even understand anymore where every signal is going to, because it becomes too complex.

So the advice of treating a signal the way 'it deserves' to be treated is a good one, but I still feel my old way of working has also got some positive sides, like sounds affecting each other and being sent to all kinds of other inserts, and then sent back, and forth, and back again: it can create some nice fx in a way.

Plus for me it's a challenge to find out what I'm actually doing ;)
Maybe a combination of both ways, the structured and non-structured way will help me not to loose track of the track...
Anyway, thank you for your advice!:)
 
 
 
MarinuZz [nl]
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You're welcome ;). 
Quote:
"Maybe a combination of both ways, the structured and non-structured way will help me not to loose track of the track..." 
    
That's the way I tend to work too. 
I think to much structure kills the fun and spontanity with music/sound production (offcourse this is something to discus on, it's just my opinion.)
The mixing thing is just an insicht how to control your sound better in mixage, it's basic and something to build further on and the rest is just to do crazy stuff and having fun.

Gtrzz,,
 
 
 
ThorLtd [nl]
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Nice discussion. Although there are some remarks i'd ;ike too make. Dick raaimakers for one thing.  Sure he is the godfather of sampling but in no way does this say anything about his music. If you even wanna call it music. He was a pioneer but his music was nothing special. more a scientist then a musician.
Anyway this has nothing to do with the question. There is a easy solution to your problem jette. Just use rewire in any DAW you like.bounce the source in to your daw on the fly.
I would personally recommend rendering on a sample group level though. Group your samples and vst synth etc, according to their respective sound character.Master the bounced versions in Cubase or any other DAW (Reaper is a nice opensource alternative)that has more precize parameter feedback. You can limmit your groups without making too much consessions in mastering the tracks when used wisely, you can do this by grouping them according to their frequencies)
On the signal flow, IMO this is not a technical issue only marinuzz. There are whole genre's based on imperfection. An over driven bassdrum blowing away lots of frequencies of hiats when routed trough the same fx chain etc etc.
I am a sound designer, i've been doing this for over 10 years, ive worked with many (ex)students of SEA, and Sonology on KonCon) and altough there are certain apects very important in these institutuons there is more eye for the scientific side instead of the artistic side of music. I have great respect for some of the students and teachers there, dont get me wrong.
So what does a sound deserve? this is in no way to be answered without being artistic in your choises, for the perfect sound is different to everybody. I do have to agree with Marinuzz about knowing what frequancies do, and how to treat them. in Holland we say "Meten is weten' (measuring is knowing) jsut use the information to do exactly what you want. Know your imperfection so to speak
 
 
 
MarinuZz [nl]
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Nice.. Some more input.
I completely agree with you. I just
wanted to advice one way of doing it. Just to make it not confusing.
Especially for people who don't have 10 years of sounddesign
experience. But you are right. At the end it's the choice of the
producer and it depends on the genre. How ever I don't believe that a
certain genre has a way of working. For instance I often have to bounce
tracks or part of a soundevent because my cpu can not keep up with the
amount of programs I use or it's from the analogue studio. But I am
still someone that shapes a sound and audio engineer during the proces.
But this depends offcourse in the situation. For instance with
mastering that's something I won't like to do myself. Offcourse signal
flow is something to play and offcourse distortion. In dutch: Het doel
heiligt de middelen.  
Thnx for pointing it out. 


One thing I can't agree with is about the artistic thing or I
can agree. I like to study there because the teachers and students are
really open minded. Offcourse it's scientific it happenes when you
study sound and electronics. What really artistic is can be discussed
on offcourse.. That's the same that elderly people say that techno is
no music or the instrument players say that computer music is no real
music. For instance I find to place a bucket on a pole no art (and
believe me a lot of people disagree). Not that I am a dick raaijmakers
fan. I share the same opinion about that. The next remark is more ment
about electronics and art from the late years. What someone finds good
music and art is different for another. It's quite subjective. I think
we can agree in that.  



Quote:
Originally posted by : ThorLtd

Nice discussion. Although there are some remarks i'd ;ike too make. Dick raaimakers for one thing.  Sure he is the godfather of sampling but in no way does this say anything about his music. If you even wanna call it music. He was a pioneer but his music was nothing special. more a scientist then a musician.
Anyway this has nothing to do with the question. There is a easy solution to your problem jette. Just use rewire in any DAW you like.bounce the source in to your daw on the fly.
I would personally recommend rendering on a sample group level though. Group your samples and vst synth etc, according to their respective sound character.Master the bounced versions in Cubase or any other DAW (Reaper is a nice opensource alternative)that has more precize parameter feedback. You can limmit your groups without making too much consessions in mastering the tracks when used wisely, you can do this by grouping them according to their frequencies)
On the signal flow, IMO this is not a technical issue only marinuzz. There are whole genre's based on imperfection. An over driven bassdrum blowing away lots of frequencies of hiats when routed trough the same fx chain etc etc.
I am a sound designer, i've been doing this for over 10 years, ive worked with many (ex)students of SEA, and Sonology on KonCon) and altough there are certain apects very important in these institutuons there is more eye for the scientific side instead of the artistic side of music. I have great respect for some of the students and teachers there, dont get me wrong.
So what does a sound deserve? this is in no way to be answered without being artistic in your choises, for the perfect sound is different to everybody. I do have to agree with Marinuzz about knowing what frequancies do, and how to treat them. in Holland we say "Meten is weten' (measuring is knowing) jsut use the information to do exactly what you want. Know your imperfection so to speak

 
Quote:

 
 
 
ThorLtd [nl]
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True, i think i let my opinion of what the definition of art and artistic is speak too much in my comment.
And truth be told some concerts of student are really creative, with others...wow i cant imagine listening to that let alone make it for hours on end. On the other hand i know a guy who makes a music piece with some weird algorithem and random controls in 3 minutes that lasts 30 minutes... for me thats where music ends and technoligy starts. Other may call it excperimental, and in a way it is, it might become aplicable in some form for creating  " music.
one small remark about certain genres have a certain way going about production side: i meant stated that in order to get a certain effect (like too much bass reflex in your mids blowing away certain freq of the hi hats etc) is a desired effect for some styles. how you handle your CPU load has nothign to do with this.

And yes art is subjective


 
 
 
MarinuZz [nl]
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I completely agree with you.
About the remark. Offcourse balance of frequencies has nothing to do with cpu. I was pointing out when you produce sound on your computer and do the mixage the amount of programs running. I was a bit vage about it.
 
 
 
jette [nl]
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Quote:
Originally posted by : ThorLtd
 
Quote:
Anyway this has nothing to do with the question. There is a easy solution to your problem jette. Just use rewire in any DAW you like.bounce the source in to your daw on the fly.
I would personally recommend rendering on a sample group level though. Group your samples and vst synth etc, according to their respective sound character.Master the bounced versions in Cubase or any other DAW (Reaper is a nice opensource alternative)that has more precize parameter feedback. You can limmit your groups without making too much consessions in mastering the tracks when used wisely, you can do this by grouping them according to their frequencies)
On the signal flow, IMO this is not a technical issue only marinuzz. There are whole genre's based on imperfection. An over driven bassdrum blowing away lots of frequencies of hiats when routed trough the same fx chain etc etc.

  

thanks for the explanation. I don't know if I understand completely what you mean (sample group level --> grouping sounds based on sound character?) Will it still sound the way I meant it? Hmm.. there's only one way to find out :) Or I must stop complaining about the less precize parameter feedback ;)

When i find some time i'll give reaper a try. thanks again for all the feedback, it's great to here some other thoughts!!
 
 
 
ThorLtd [nl]
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Quote:
Originally posted by : jette

Quote:
Originally posted by : ThorLtd
  
Quote:
Anyway this has nothing to do with the question. There is a easy solution to your problem jette. Just use rewire in any DAW you like.bounce the source in to your daw on the fly.
I would personally recommend rendering on a sample group level though. Group your samples and vst synth etc, according to their respective sound character.Master the bounced versions in Cubase or any other DAW (Reaper is a nice opensource alternative)that has more precize parameter feedback. You can limmit your groups without making too much consessions in mastering the tracks when used wisely, you can do this by grouping them according to their frequencies)
On the signal flow, IMO this is not a technical issue only marinuzz. There are whole genre's based on imperfection. An over driven bassdrum blowing away lots of frequencies of hiats when routed trough the same fx chain etc etc.

   

thanks for the explanation. I don't know if I understand completely what you mean (sample group level --> grouping sounds based on sound character?) Will it still sound the way I meant it? Hmm.. there's only one way to find out :) Or I must stop complaining about the less precize parameter feedback ;)

When i find some time i'll give reaper a try. thanks again for all the feedback, it's great to here some other thoughts!!

Sorry for the late reply, when you group things that have the same sound character(read "share frequencies")mastering those bounced tracks give the best result. 
Or if you dont have many channels bounce each channel seperate, so you can monitor the parameters better in a program like Reaper.

You can also look for plugin with graphic oreinted metering, like phase, freq, velocity etc (spectrographs and the likes)
 
 
 
jette [nl]
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doesn't matter :)
thanks anyway!